Shain Shapiro - Interview
Navigating the Soundscapes of Change: AI, Music, and the Power of Community
Author, Speaker, and Night-Time Economy Expert Shain Shapiro discusses his journey and the Music Industry
Interview: Nick Clarke
In a world where the intersections of music and technology are becoming increasingly complex, Shain Shapiro stands as a pioneer, navigating these intricate pathways with precision. An author, speaker, and the world's leading consultant on the night-time economy for cities, his influence stretches far and wide.
In our exclusive interview, we sit down with Shain Shapiro to explore his diverse roles and how they shape his views on contemporary issues facing the music industry. Shain’s insights extend from the very texture of musical content to the broader themes of community building and global investment in music as an economy.
The conversation reveals a multifaceted individual, blending academic rigor with a keen eye for business opportunities. Above all, it highlights his innate ability to balance commercial and artistic concerns, a skill vital in an industry often teetering between the two. Walk with us as we journey through the mind of Shain Shapiro, exploring the balance of community, technology, and personal well-being in a rapidly evolving music landscape.
Can you tell me about your place in the world, your journey so far, and what drew you into the world of Music?
Shain Shapiro:
Well, my name is Shain Shapiro. I'm Canadian but I live in the UK. I've worked in the music industry all my life; I've never really had any other job. That wasn't by design; it just happened. Now, I do a couple of things. I founded a company called Sound Diplomacy, an economic consulting firm that works with cities and governments on music, culture and nighttime economy strategy and policy. We try to engage with communities to get them to invest in music and associated culture as economic development.
I also founded and now run a nonprofit called the Center for Music Ecosystems, which works to help incorporate music into policies addressing the world's biggest problems. We mainly work with the UN and other global organizations to incorporate music into how we address issues like the climate crisis, financing development, and eradicating poverty. That's really my passion project. Music can be much more impactful than just being the subject of benefit concerts.
Finally, I wrote a book over the last few years that's out this week, called "This Must Be the Place: How Music Can Make Your City Better." The book is about rethinking music not just as entertainment, but as something that can help build, structure, manage, and improve communities.
Could you tell me a little more about the book, and how it resonates across different countries and cultures?
Shain Shapiro:
The book explores the link between music and urban planning, which has never been addressed before in a book outside of academia. Music is universal. Whether we know it or not, communities are investing in music, usually through facilities like funding venues, concert halls, or through educational programs. However, there isn't really a strategy around it. Policies governing music often have nothing to do with music itself but are often related, for exemple, to alcohol and liquor or public assembly or health and safety.
If we think of music as a standalone policy and view it in its totality as an ecosystem, from education and health and well-being to nightlife and entertainment, I believe there are many different ways we can improve communities deliberately. My book aims to introduce people to this topic to make them think differently about why music matters. It doesn't just matter when we're listening to it; it matters because of the entire infrastructure and ecosystem that it creates and needs to sustain. So, the book serves as a blueprint of everything I've learned and all the mistakes I've made over the last 10 years to help cities think differently about music.
Can you give me one or two examples? I can only assume the challenges that you'd have in writing a book, getting it published, and distributing it in as many languages as possible…
Take Sound Diplomacy, for instance - through your work there is actually how we met many years ago. What hurdles have you encountered?
Shain Shapiro:
There are a couple of examples. There are many stories in the book. One is Melbourne in Australia. Fast forward 10 to 15 years, and the city now has an entire infrastructure dedicated to supporting music. It doesn't mean that they don't have challenges, but they have a regional music office, a city music office, and frameworks around building codes, alcohol and liquor licensing, and so on to help support the music ecosystem. All of this actually stemmed from a a few venue closures in and around 2010. These led to a series of protests called SLAM, which stands for Save Live Australia's Music. Over 10,000 people marched on the street to protest. Similar things happened after COVID in the Netherlands, the UK, and other countries. But that has led to widespread policy development. Australia now has a music office in every state; most cities do as well. There's also a national live music office.
Another example is the city that we've worked with in Alabama, called Huntsville. Huntsville is not known for music; it's where NASA is based, so they're known for space and rockets. However, the city incorporated music intentionally into its 10-year strategic plan, which included hiring Sound Diplomacy to conduct an audit. An audit is essentially identifying everything in the city that is musical and putting together some economic analysis of it. Since then, it has been identified that the city was lacking an open-air music venue, so fast forward a few years and a new 8,000-capacity amphitheater called the Orion opened last year. It was named one of the best new venues in America. The city has also hired a full-time music officer in the Department of Economic Development. They've created a music instrument library, invested in music education programs, are redoing the zoning to be more pro-music, and have quarterly meetups. It's an intentional strategic approach to music, and cities do it in different ways. Some focus on tourism, like Kobe, for example, focuses on Northern Soul tourism. There are other initiatives across Japan as well. But Huntsville, Melbourne, and many other cities have looked at it holistically, and that's something I'm hoping improves. Many cities look at bits and pieces of it, like how to protect nightlife or pop culture, or how to better support grassroots music venues or improve music education. But my thinking is it's all tied together; it's all part of the ecosystem, so we have to look at it holistically.
It seems like a challenging aspect of your role - with finding the balance between all these diverse music genres. And the idea of 'inclusiveness' is crucial, ensuring that there's something for everyone I guess. Can you share your approach to this, while still acknowledging the sensitivities within each genre?
Shain Shapiro:
Well, I really try not to prioritize or focus on any specific genre or discipline. I sometimes get criticized for that approach. Some see it as overly academic or bureaucratic, but there's a core set of policies and practices in cities that impact all genres. First and foremost, there's a respect for music both as an economy and as a social good. Most communities respect music as a social good, but fewer see music as an economic engine. This has consequences, especially for challenging genres like dance music, hip-hop, or metal.
It's compounded by history, where many communities have primarily invested in classical, opera, ballet, and jazz. We try to strip away those biases and focus on understanding how music works—literally, how people make money in it, and how a music education program in schools impacts the business of a music venue down the road. We're not just training musicians; we're creating audiences and, I believe, better people.
However, you do have to focus on genres, disciplines, and communities that face the most discrimination. A lot of our work ends up prioritizing underrepresented genres like club culture, hip-hop, and metal. Interestingly, the more popular a genre is, the less political engagement it usually receives—Taylor Swift being the notable exception; everyone loves her.
Why is that?
Shain Shapiro:
Well, there's a history. Once you start doing something and it becomes comfortable, it's hard to do something different. I think that's just human nature. So if there's a program and a system that supports, say, traditional western classical music, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm a fan as well. But it's difficult to say, "Okay, let's divert your budget to support hip-hop or shoegaze or something like that." That's one issue. The second issue is more blunt: racism and classism. Racism especially when it comes to black music and music made by minorities. This is a particular challenge in the Americas and in the UK and other former colonial countries in Europe, for example. Then there's classism, where music has been historically marketed to middle-class communities. Symphonies are expensive to produce; there are many people involved. These are very hard barriers to break. The best way to do it, I believe, is to demonstrate the economic impact of change. Simply put, we can make more money collectively, generate more tax revenue, and improve our communities if we diversify our understanding of music. Club culture, for instance, can be intimidating for those who haven't experienced it. The way to address this is by demonstrating the economic and social benefits, such as job incubation and mental health improvement, while also being upfront about the challenges like substance abuse or antisocial behavior.
I remember you telling me years ago about music walks in Amsterdam. They were taking local residents out every night or every week to actually see what's inside these places, instead of just hearing the noise and seeing the people outside. Is that right?
Shain Shapiro:
Yes, Amsterdam did that to help explain the value of its night time economy and those businesses in it. In Georgia, USA, a group of musicians took policymakers into a studio and recorded a song with them. Most people have no clue how a recording studio operates. Even I don't fully grasp it, as I'm not that musical, but I understand it to some extent.
It's similar to trying food from a foreign culture for the first time; it's often met with trepidation. Once you show someone it's not scary, there's an opportunity for openness and community development. However, that takes time, money, and influence. If a city lacks a music office or a nighttime economy representative, building these types of programs becomes significantly more difficult.
The key is having a policy for something to exist. Without a music policy, from a governance and policy perspective, music doesn't exist in a community. The first step is understanding that music needs the same level of governance as any other industry. People often think that music is special because it's entertainment, and that creates challenges in governance. There's a lot of passion involved, and people are very protective of the music they like, which can be fragmented but in a fun way.
What's needed is evidence-based policymaking, not the opposite. Emotional decisions in music are the worst kind to make. When you make a decision based on your love for music, you automatically discount a lot of other music because music is so personal. This is one of the main problems; we see it as so personal that we forget its collective value.
I listen to all sorts of music, and there are only a few genres that I don't understand. It's not that I dislike them: I still appreciate the music. For example, there are certain types of electronic music that I don’t understand, even though I have been in front of famous DJs while they were performing. However, I respect the art and the craft, and I think that's something a lot of people forget. For example, I think one of the most theatrical forms of music is metal. Metal is just musical theatre to me. It's incredibly theatrical, and I love heavy music and metal, but I understand that many people don't. Personally, I enjoy seeing people who have been to a metal concert and can't move their necks afterwards (laughs).
When you're talking about policy, do you set it up in a way that allows for self-auditing in the future, or do you return annually to perform those audits?
Shain Shapiro:
Every city is different, admittedly. But the idea is for some of the recommendations to be implemented locally. Usually, Sound Diplomacy aims to come back about three years later to re-evaluate the economic impact and determine if we've been successful. However, the policy recommendations and community regulatory work are always managed by the community.
When you come back around three years later, generally, what is the thing that people adopt the easiest? And what is the thing they struggle with the most?
Shain Shapiro:
The thing that is most challenging for every city is human personalities. Arguing for the seriousness of music to be respected from a fiscal perspective is also challenging. Most people who want to implement change in music don't have the experience to understand the types of changes. We're not planning experts, we're not licensing experts, we're not experts in building code regulation or health and safety for the most part. We're experts in music. So identifying those folks who can work with us and then engaging them and bringing them together is hard in every city.
What's the thing that gets adopted the easiest? the thing that rolls out smoothly once you've done your audit and set in your strategy?
Shain Shapiro:
People are usually more receptive to structured engagement. The creation of a music board or commission with structured meetings, quarterly meetings, and a framework to bring the music community together in a city tends to happen in most places. Music being included as a strategic policy area in tourism tends to happen quite a lot as well. The city tries to attract more events and festivals and usually more music and education programs because we identify that those usually happen.
The harder things are policy, regulatory, and policy-based issues—changing zoning law, changing planning law. That kind of stuff could take years.
Usually, if I get asked anything regarding your specialty and industry, I always point towards you, or read what you're doing. It has been such a big help and inspiration to me over the years with my own work. But, what set the precedent for you?
Shain Shapiro:
Well, there were many things before me. Some cities were already doing this kind of work independently, mostly in the States, Europe, and Australia. It just wasn't unified. There were singular initiatives in various cities since the nineties to incorporate music more into community development. I had some friends who ran festivals, and a series of coincidences got me involved in this. I'm really interested in place and cities; it's a personal love of mine. I read a lot about urban studies, and my best friend is an urban planner. So, the convergence of music in cities evolved over time. One opportunity in London allowed me to volunteer for a committee and help co-write a report that became very popular about why music venues were closing. Another friend, a well-known festival creator, involved me in a project that brought together live music and city planning. Over time, I started to realize there was an opportunity to think differently about this
What drives you everyday to do what you do?
Shain Shapiro:
Two things drive me. First, I want people to love and value music as much as I do. Second, I think music is criminally and chronically undervalued, mainly because it's designed - in terms of the economic model that serves it - to be complicated. I enjoy explaining to people how music works. I've been in rooms with organizations like the UN and the European Commission, telling them that music matters. Most people love music, so when I explain it, they say they've never thought about it that way. That's what keeps me going. I've written a book about it, and I really hope people like it. It took four years to write, but those who have read it seem to appreciate it.
How diverse are the cultural and regulatory landscapes across different cities? Do you tailor your approach to meet their specific needs or is there a formula to it?
Shain Shapiro:
Our methodology is more or less the same, but the way we do it is tailored for every community, usually based on what the community tells us they want. We never make any assumptions about any community. We're in the data and evidence game with Sound Diplomacy. We just try to build data and evidence that is irrefutable. It's the community that tailors the work, telling us what they want us to focus on. Every community is different, and that is true.
How do you maintain such a forward-thinking mindset with all the changes going on with music and technology, especially now with the emergence of AI?
Shain Shapiro:
I think there's a huge amount of opportunity with AI. The most important thing will be that whatever content is being utilized by artificial intelligence, either to amplify or to create new content, the original human-made content is tracked and remunerated. What worries me is that the copyright infrastructure around the world is so bad that AI is another level that will really make it difficult to help build transparent copyright infrastructure in countries that don't have it.
There's a lot of opportunities to leverage AI for promotion and tracking. It's already happening through the creation of smart contracts. I also think there are a lot of opportunities for communities to be both in person and virtual. Every music scene in every city could have a DAO—digital autonomous organization—that could create content and raise money together. It comes down again to education and understanding. My worry is that if we don't teach it, if we don't introduce it properly, then it will just be utilized by a few and monetized by a few rather than by many. But I'm optimistic.
We live in a world where everything can be tracked for better and worse. Yet there's still a black box of hundreds of millions of dollars of money that can’t be paid to the owner because of poor data practices. This is content that has been listened to, but they can't track who owns it. I'm hoping AI can help change this and build transparency to demonstrate that music is an economy worth investing in. I know a lot of folks are working on that change.
I recently watched an interview with Snoop Dogg where he was talking about streaming. He was comparing it to making a record and he was questioning how he could get a billion streams on something and not even make a million dollars. Tech companies need to sort this out.
The market will have to be corrected at some point. But streaming is an amazing advancement. Availability of music legally is an amazing advancement. But we have to think about, and remunerate, the true source of the value here - artists and composers. But this isn’t just down to streaming platforms. It’s much more complicated then that.
Do you think AI could fix or exacerbate these issues?
Shain Shapiro:
I think that's more of a human issue we have with it. AI can make it worse in some way because a significant amount of the tracks being uploaded every day are AI-generated. So, there's some danger there. When it comes to music and communities, it's very simple. It's about engagement and that has never changed. AI can help with that, but I believe the ability to engage and communicate will become even more important as technology continues to disrupt this world.
So you're obviously well-informed and very creative. What are specific habits or routines that help you maintain this passion?
Shain Shapiro:
So, I wrote the book by dedicating an hour every day, usually from 9 to 10 or 10 to 11 in the morning. The COVID situation actually helped in a way because I furloughed myself, giving me more time to focus. My first job was as a music journalist, and I've always been passionate about writing. I hold a Ph.D. and I love to write, so I try to do it as much as I can.
What I've learned over time is that you have to trust the people you work with and let them do their jobs. I've transitioned from being the founder to CEO and now to Chair of Sound Diplomacy, so I'm not much involved in the day-to-day. It's crucial to let the team around me succeed and fail on their own account. Especially when you're a founder of a small company - our team is about 30 people - it's hard but beneficial to everyone to step back.
What's your secret to sustaining success over time?
Shain Shapiro:
There's no real secret, I find. I'm not a fan of the business of doing business or any quick hacks and tricks. For me, there are three things: one, it's about your network and how you treat people. Two, it's about building credibility over time. I work hard to ensure that whatever I do is of high quality. And the third is, unfortunately, just working hard. I've spent too many weekends working, and I'm trying to adopt a four-day work week now, but I am going on tour so that’ll have to wait until I come home.
When you're building a business, it's really about who's around you, how you're treated and how you treat others, and ensuring that what you do is of the highest quality. The business self-help world doesn't offer much for me, though I understand if others find it helpful.
What's your strategy for staying mentally and physically sharp in a busy world?
Shain Shapiro:
I walk every day. I just came back from going for a walk and I do Pilates. Pilates is one of my favorite things to do. I don't understand why people don't. It's life-saving to me. It's harder to be healthy when I'm on the road. Simple things like staying in a hotel with a gym help. I lead a fairly quiet life when I'm off the road, when I'm not traveling. I stay in my local area. I spend a lot of time with my partner. I try to keep life as simple as possible.
I'm 40 years old and I notice it. I know that I won't be able to keep up this pace for much longer. One thing I've learned is to understand what makes me happy. The hamster wheel of success is not healthy. What makes me happy are very simple things: having enough money to pay the mortgage and go out for dinner once in a while, and spending time with the people I love while being physically healthy. I'm trying very hard to be as physically healthy as possible.
What sort of role does music play in your life, in terms of genres and artists?
Shain Shapiro:
Music plays a significant role in my life. It does change and evolve. The older I get, the less heavy music I listen to.
Why does that happen?
Shain Shapiro:
I don't know why that happens. When I work, I always listen to familiar music. I hate silence and can't handle it. I mainly listen to live shows of bands that I grew up with. I subscribe to an app called Nugs.net, which has tens of thousands of live archive recordings from several hundred bands, mainly American bands. I listen to a lot of that because it goes on in the background. I've also been listening to tons of jazz and blues lately, as well as different African compilations. Additionally, I listen to some radio shows like BBC radio shows, Q, Jamie Cullum, the Cerys Matthews Blues Show, and Gilles Peterson. I also listen to a lot of podcasts, especially when I'm on the road and don't want to work. Usually, it's stuff about current affairs.
This morning, for example, I was listening to Wilco. I love all kinds of country music, even what some might consider bad country music. I've spent a lot of time in the US, particularly in the South, so I have a cultural understanding of country music in all its forms. Lately, I've been digging into some old-school country and blues. Just yesterday, I was listening to Charlie Musselwhite and also the new Gil Scott-Heron live album on Spotify. I also listened to J Cole, so hip-hop comes in and out for me. However, I can't listen to hip-hop when I'm working because I pay too much attention to the lyrics and lose focus, but I listen to a lot of it when I am on the road. I have listened to the new Kendrick Lamar over a dozen times.
I am totally like that with lyrics when I work, I try to avoid it where possible. Recently, I've been listening to blues artists from the 1920s like Blind Lemon and Blind Willie Johnson. I need music with context, not just how it sounds.
Context is very important - I've been to Clarksdale, Mississippi five times and know a lot of people who live there. I've been fortunate to travel the world through this job and experience all sorts of different music. For instance, I'm very interested in Japanese music. Lately, I've been obsessed with '80s Japanese yacht rock. I'm a big fan of Cornelius and enjoy their kind of electro-pop. Japanese culture fascinates me because of the dedication to detail, which impresses me immensely.
What advice would you give to someone who is just starting out in your industry, particularly those who are thinking about making changes or bringing something from one city to another?
Shain Shapiro:
My advice would be: do your research first and foremost. You have to understand what you're getting into and how you can contribute positively. Also, make sure that the work you're doing isn't solely benefiting you. Real success means benefiting a lot of people, including those you might never meet. It's a broader perspective that should guide your actions.
Patience is incredibly crucial. In my experience, it's taken me nearly a decade to get people to understand what I do for a living. Real, substantive change, especially when you're talking about influencing cultures or cities, doesn't happen overnight. This stuff takes a long time. I've found that patience and persistence are the two pillars that have supported my journey.
I think that sums it up pretty well. Patience and persistence - those are the two things I've learned.